ever wondered why some people seem to have a gift for music have you ever
wished that you could play by ear sing in tune improvise and jam you're in the
right place time to turn those wishes into reality welcome to the musicality
podcast with your host Christopher Sutton on today's episode we're going to
be talking about something which came up in our recent interview with Andrew Bishko
from the musical u team it was mentioned in the episode but we didn't
really dwell on it because I knew I would want to have Andrew back to talk
about it in much more detail that topic is the Lydian chromatic concept which I
have to confess I didn't really I don't think I'd even heard of before Andrew
started working with us at musical U and it was fascinating to learn from him all
about this way of thinking about music and he wrote a fantastic article
for us a while back which was entitled the Lydian scale seeking the ultimate
mysteries of music so if that doesn't wet your appetite for what might be in
store I don't know what will welcome it to the show Andrew thanks for coming
back to share a little bit about this fascinating topic great it's great to be
here Christopher so get us started from the beginning what is the Lydian
chromatic concept and where did it come from
well the Lydian chromatic concept was originated by a guy named George Russell
he was hanging out in the 40s and 50s with all the great jazz innovators at
that time and he he was himself a French horn player playing some jazz French
horn but he was very interested in theory and in the new movements in jazz
and one day he was talking with Miles Davis and he asked what his goals were
and Miles said I want to play all the changes and you know George was
fascinated by this response because if anybody knew the chord changes inside
out in that time period it was Miles Davis so he pondered what would it be to
play all the changes and he came up with a different kind of
a music theory most of music theory that we have right now explains how musicians
will do something they'll advance something they'll come up with something
and then the music theorists come in and say okay that's that's how it works
that's how it fits they're talking about how it works
but George wanted to know why it worked and he came up with this concept the
Lydian chromatic concept based on a new picture of of scales and chords hmm and
I think to me as a scientist I think of it as a model I don't know if the word
concept to me can mean just an idea but really it's it's a whole model for how
music is put together I think and how to think about things like melody and
harmony yes George called it a unified field theory of music which is something
that yes something a physicists have been after right now to try and unite
quantum physics with Einsteinian physics and and make one theory that explains
everything hmm well certainly I think you can see it as
the one model to rule them all so we better dive in and talk about what
exactly this Lydian chromatic concept is and what does it have to do maybe that's
a good place to stop what does it have to do with what some of our listeners
may already be familiar with which is the Lydian mode
okay well the Lydian mode is is a very particular scale and a lot of times we
learn Lydian mode in reference to the major scale so if you have a scale like
we usually think of a scale like C major scale
see going up and down in steps but of course those notes can be played in in
any order so you can skip things like you can play a C major scale in what we
call tertian order and all thirds where I'm just going up there there's last one
I going up and skipping up in thirds and similarly you can play them with fifths
now if you look at the circle of fifths
the fifth is a fundamental interval in nature it's created with a pure
mathematical ratio of 2 to 3 and with that what that means is that it's it's a
very strong strong sound you know you hear a fifth it has that hollow kind of
resonant sound to it and this isn't by accident or random it's because the
fifth is the the purity of mathematical ratios so the circle of fifths is
organized in this way according to this interval and if I play a if I play a
scale in order of fifths if I went all perfect fifths going from C I'd go Sam
f sharp and by sandwich all those notes down I would get a scale starting on C
where instead of F being the fourth degree it's a sharp and that's how the
vidiian mode is derived interesting so let's just pause for a second there and
make sure that's clear so what you did was you started from the note C and
without any regard to key signatures or scales or anything like that you just
took this fundamental interval of a fifth and you went up a fifth from a C
to get to a G and then you did it again from G to get to a D and so on until you
had seven notes to build your scale with and you put them all within one octave
you just collapsed them down into one octave and that produced your Lydian
scale is that right that's correct you know our present harmony system in
many ways it's called tersh and harm rates based at intervals of thirds but
like if you go back in time back like in the Middle Ages and the Renaissance a
third was actually considered a dissonance the the consonant intervals
were the ones that were these pure mathematical ratios which were octaves
and fifths and then a fourth which was the inverted fifth so they have that
resonant quality and so if you're basing things on that then you come up with a
Lydian scale rather than a major scale hmm and as you pointed out there though
one real difference between those two is just one note even though it's built in
this quite different way you end up with a scale which is the same as the major
scale except one note is changed right that's correct so ah the only difference
between here's a C major scale
and the C Lydian
no no just play up and down those first 4 notes for us if you would because I
think that creates ok a real mood that does not sound like a major scale yeah
so this is the major scale and the Lydian
mmm so I think we're immediately transported into quite a different
musical flavor to come back to our previous episode about scales and their
flavors there that Lydian flavor jumping out at us so this leads on I think to
one of the big concepts that we just briefly touched on in our interview
related to the Lydian chromatic concept which is gravity the idea that there is
a tonal gravity wrapped up in all this can you tell us what that is and how it
relates to this fourth note changing absolutely so we talk about a lot of
times we talk about the tonic the tonic is in any scale is usually the first
note and it's the note that everything is gravitating towards or resolving to
that note so that's an example that we're all familiar with in terms of
tonal gravity that idea of resolution and in our in any interval if you really
listen carefully and this is a great ear training exercise there's a tonic of
even an interval not just a scale so for example if I play
a second just going from C to D and then I come back it resolves back down to the
C it resolves the lower note in the interval and if I look at a major scale
I mean it at a Lydian scale rather if you go through this and that could do
the whole thing right now but every interval resolves back down to the tonic
every interval in this scale so it has a very restful quality and feeling to it
the Lydian scale is kind of Spacey
it's a very it's a very restful there's not a lot of tonal gravity there's not a
lot of conflict in that scale and so it has this very Spacey relaxed thing and
you know if you play this for people a lot of times they'll that's oh it's time
for the spa you know it's time to time for a massage or something and now if we
look at the major scale we have that interval of the fourth we're good fourth
now the fourth resolves upward Bien it's really just an inverse of a dominant
tonic relationship but it's resolving upward to the fourth degree so all the
other intervals are resolving down except that forth and it's very strong
resolution upward cool so I'm gonna sorry to interrupt but I'm gonna just
jump in and make sure everyone's with us when we're talking about resolving
because I remember when I was first learning music that sounded like such a
music theory word and for a long time I didn't really know what people meant
when they talked about resolving it sounded like you know complex Roman
numerals and classical music analysis and all we're talking about here is that
music tends to create tension and release you know we have a whole module
on this in musical you because it's so fundamental but when you hear even just
a pair of notes like Andrew demonstrated often it sounds musically like Rick
coming home with one of them or we're coming to rest with one of them one of
them is creating a little departure and then the other one brings it home and so
what Andrew was saying there was that in the Lydian scale any pair of intervals
from the ROO note are gonna resolve back to that bottom though it's always the
bottom one that's the tonic whereas in the major scale with its fourth note a
bit different from the Lydian scale actually that one sticks out and it has
an inverse tonal gravity meaning it's the top note
that sounds like it's being resolved to Andrew maybe you could just demonstrate
that perfect for with an Augmented fourth comparison for us so we can hear
that resolution in one direction versus the other yes yes okay very well said
Kristen so if I go to the 4/3 salsa and there's
a lot of songs they'll start with that interval but um it's it's a real solid
beginning to a melody now the the when I come down it wants to go back up to the
F it doesn't want to stay there once to back up and resolve to the app now with
the Augmented fourth or tritone
it's an interesting interval because it's symmetrical and can go both ways
and it kind of doesn't really want to resolve anywhere it just hangs out there
but in general it's it's more of a downward mmm that's more resolved
feeling going back down to the tonic it certainly doesn't have that strong pull
upwards like the fourth does great and I loved a point you made in your article
which was that this is where the word diatonic comes from the people might
have heard of can you explain that a little bit yes so diatonic simply means
two tonics the diatonic scale has two strong centers of tonal gravity which is
the the root and then the fourth degree so what happens is that the major scale
is a very restless scale it's always feeling like it wants to resolve and it
can't quite get there that's why you have you could have you know a Beethoven
coda where it's going
I don't know that was a playpen we're helping you get the idea teas bump up
bum but um but on but um but um they just can go on forever this idea of
tension and resolution tension and resolution tension a resolution and you
have this kind of a thing in western music and it's interesting
that the major scale wasn't really the major scale until around the year 1600
that's when it really solidified until then there was all these various modes
that were used but just around the time and if you look at what's happening
around 1600 you have the Age of Exploration you have the Renaissance you
have the Reformation you have this huge expansion in Western culture this
restlessness that was perfectly portrayed in the restlessness of the
music in this motion forward that's this perpetual motion especially if you
listen to composer the 1700s like Bach and Handel there's this motionless
incessant energy and it's this this is reflected in the music of that culture
and in the diatonic scale i'm tastic well i know that when i first learned
about this stuff from andrew it blew my mind
a little bit so if you're listening to this and thinking wow that that's kind
of crazy you're not alone I think a lot of us take the major scale for granted
as kind of the base scale everything else comes from but as we've unpacked
here arguably the major scales a bit of an odd one and the Lydian scale is a lot
more balanced and tranquil and has that single tonic so I hope this has a set
off some new thoughts in your head some sparks I mean inspiration maybe Andrew
what should people do if they're curious and excited and want to do something
with the Lydian scale and the Lydian chromatic concept or want to learn more
about it well my first suggestion is just to explore it explore the Lydian
scale and all the modes by you it's really easy just to improvise and if you
even on the piano if you don't know how to play piano you just play an F
with your left hand and then you play on the white keys you're playing a Lydian
scale
to explore the sounds and the gravity of the scale
and then you can do that with the other modes as well which gives you the
contrast where you can feel the different kinds of of tonal gravity I do
want to point out that George Russell wasn't saying that the Lydian scale was
better than other scales it's just a it's more the center of the Lydian scale
is the center rather than the major scale it's the center scale that we
could base everything out of to get a true picture of the range of
possibilities available in music from from from more in going what he called
to more outgoing so I'm just side step your question how can you learn more
about it the first thing is just to play with it and then you know go online do
some research about it get one of George Russell's books and then explore it in
your own music and what it sounds like to you terrific
well we'll certainly have a link in the show notes to andrew's article on the
topic as well as other useful resources if you want to explore this further if
it's good enough for Miles Davis and George Russell it's certainly worth some
of your time and attention I hope you've enjoyed this brief introduction and
thank you again Andrew for joining us to share this Thank You Christopher was a
lot of fun thank you for listening to the musicality podcast this episode has
ended but your musical journey continues head over to musicalitypodcast.com
where you will find the links and resources mentioned in this episode as
well as bonus content exclusive for podcast listeners
that's musicalitypodcast.com
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