As in... just kissed.
No deep kiss.
No deep kissing.
This one is undrinkable for me.
One way trip to hell.
Smile a little bit, Peter.
Don't, don't show it.
You basically need to wash your mouth out
with hydrochloric acid.
We talk about oak influence today.
What is the advantage and disadvantage of the use of oak?
The is some interaction there,
which gives you an interesting mouthfeel
but what was noticed was that
oak's not only imparting those characteristics to wine,
also imparted oak flavors.
And some tannins, oak tannins, which,
if not overwhelming, contributed to the mouthfeel,
contributed to the complexity, and to the taste.
Added extra dimension to taste.
In terms of smell, color, and the mouth?
So, color-wise, oak does effect wine.
Wines that have been in oak tend to be slightly darker.
What do you mean by 'slightly darker'?
Like this darkness?
A yellow, slightly tinged with brown,
you can get that as a result of the use of oak.
Compared to that wine that would have been done
in stainless steel, or in concrete, something like that.
Without any oak influence.
Yes.
And in terms of nose?
So, on the nose, you will find the characteristic smell of oak.
A little bit of vanilla, sometimes,
particularly with American oak, US white oak,
you will have a smell of dill.
Dill!
Dill.
Like slightly green, slightly sappy smell.
You mean the herb.
Yes, a little bit like dill that you use with fish.
Dill!
Many people say that chocolate flavor is from oak aging.
I can give you an example.
There is a genre of Pinotage wines in South Africa today.
This genre of Pinotage is called coffee Pinotage.
And what they have done is
they have put this Pinotage into very heavily toasted oak barrels
OK.
and it takes on a characteristic if not of chocolate,
of coffee, or cappuccino, or mocha,
or... those characteristics which are akin in some way to chocolate.
But for me, there, what you are seeing there is
an absolute attempt to purposely over oak the wine
with toasted oak specifically to get that flavor.
People love it.
If that's what you like, that's why these people make it.
Have at it!
You mentioned about French oak and American oak.
Many people think French oak is better than American oak.
What do you think?
There is not just one French oak.
The issue with oak is the forest that it was grown in.
So, certain French oak is tighter grain than others
and so, the wood pick-up is less.
Limousin, for example, is a slightly looser grain
and the oak pick-up is more.
Many winemakers experiment with various different oaks
to try and find the oak that suits the kind of wine
that they're making and their winemaking style.
The other thing that's important is cooperage.
In France the old historical way of doing cooperage is
that you split the staves, you don't cut them.
You don't saw the staves.
Even before you make the barrels, you then age them,
the oak before you make the barrel.
You season that wood outside in the elements
for anywhere from two to four years.
The longer you leave it, the more expensive the barrel.
Now, by comparison, here we have in the United States,
Quercus Alba, the white oak and
a lot of those original barrels tend to be sawn and not split.
Not only that but they were not aged necessarily seasoned outside
and if so, for not nearly as long.
And so, there were enormous differences
in the effect of those barrels on wine.
Now subsequently it is possible to get
properly seasoned American oak, split rather than sawn,
made in the same way that barrels are made in Europe.
And so, you're getting a much higher quality of American barrel.
I found some winemakers use also
Slovenian oak or Hungarian oak.
Right.
So, there is a use of Eastern European oaks, Slovenian, Hungarian.
That oak tends to be even less flavorful
for the most part than French oak.
And it has the attributes and the qualities
of being lower in price and more neutral.
And still a very fine barrel but more neutral.
For a lot of winemakers, more neutral is very desirable.
So, that's the reason why those kinds of oaks are
used for many fine wines.
It is true.
You can also use used oak barrels.
You use them multiple times.
There is an element of risk there;
those barrels have to be cleaned very, very carefully
because otherwise you stand the risk of getting
contaminants in the barrels the most dangerous
of which is Brettanomyces.
Which you don't like at all.
That's putting it mildly.
So, you don't like oaky wine personally.
I'm OK with oak-kissed
as in...
just kissed.
I'm not in favor of heavy, oaky wine.
In the new world you find a lot of
what I call recipe winemaking.
100% malolatic, relatively low acid
but with some added acidity, sugar,
off... very, very sort of faintly off-dry, really, really oaky.
And somehow or another we have trained the consumer
that if you're paying $15 to $21, $22 and
sometimes more dollars for a bottle.
That's what they should expect,
that's what they should want
and if they don't get, they've been robbed.
Oh, yeah.
Cheated.
Those wines I have a hard time drinking.
So, slight little kiss by oak, it's OK for you.
I'm OK with that.
But no deep kiss.
No deep kissing.
No, no...
I can go into any liquor store.
And I can buy something from the Loire or from Friuli,
you know, Pinot Grigio or Sauvignon Blanc
or Muscadet or Chenin Blanc
or unoaked Chardonnay from Australia
for 9 or 10 or 11 dollars a bottle.
And I know that I'm going to have something minerally,
it might not be the world's best wine,
I don't want to drink the whole bottle.
But I'm not going to be affended by a very expensive glass
of over-oaked sweet Chardonnay.
You just told me you drank a whole bottle
on the desk yesterday night.
I wouldn't do it.
I would never say something like that
and I wouldn't do a thing like that.
One should not drink the whole bottle
unless it's truly, truly excellent, word-class wine.
Otherwise, it should be shared.
And what was the reason you drank
a whole bottle yesterday night?
I didn't.
So, shall we taste?
So, we have two bottles of wine.
This bottle is what you brought.
Right.
And this one is for blind tasting and I brought this.
Santi Apostoli delle Venezie.
It's Pinot Grigio and it sees no oak.
It's all stainless steel.
So, no oak at all.
No oak at all.
OK.
One of the possible benefits of oak is...
it perhaps makes wines,
renders them easier to drink at a younger age.
But that is at the expense of the long term ageability of the wine.
The color here is very definite yellow.
Pinot Grigio is usually light.
The color here is very definite yellow
because this wine has got
a small amount of bottle age on it.
Some of the color comes from a little bit of age
and it's slightly warmer vintage.
This wine is very nice.
Very nice.
Yes.
I feel some softness.
Yes.
Almost like cream.
But after that creaminess it gets fresher again.
Yes.
Very nice.
Very successful glass of wine.
Yes.
You order a glass of wine like that in a restaurant,
$7.99 for a glass.
If there is a restaurant like that,
I would go to the restaurant everyday!
Well, hopefully the food's good, too.
Are you ready for the second wine?
Yes, you know me.
I can't resist a blind tasting.
I don't even show you the capsule.
So, I'm looking at this one.
There's a lot of color here.
It's almost like, a sort of like pale brass.
Pale brass.
Pale brass color.
OK.
So, it's very yellow with hints of, some hints of earth,
little flecks of green but mainly yellow.
It's got quite powerful legs which gives me
the idea that it's reasonably high alcohol.
And looking at this, I would say that
it's either been oaked or it's got some sugar
or it's got a little bit of age on it
or it's made from those one or two grape varieties
that have color, or there's been some skin contact.
Quite a lot of choice.
So, here is a wine with a certain amount of oak on the nose.
But the oak... the nose only suggests
the absolute catastrophe of oak on the palate.
This is what's called a catastrophe of oak.
This is a violation of the covenant
between man and god.
That's a dangerous place to be in America.
So, this one is too oaky for you.
This one is undrinkable for me.
The wood is vanilla
and it almost tastes like bubblegum,
this character.
There is a bit of wood tannin on the finish.
You don't look happy.
No, I'm really not happy.
I can't even really tell what it is.
I mean grape-wise I can't even really tell what it is.
I'm going to say that this is a...
if I have to guess it, this is a 2016 or 2017 Chardonnay,
heavily oaked Chardonnay
and I'm guessing it's domestic, Californian.
That would be my guess.
You are very right.
I'm sad to be correct.
Now the question is how much you paid for this.
I would guess around $15.
Very correct.
Yes.
Don't, don't show it because I've just said
all terrible things about the winemaker.
They don't call it that name for nothing.
We have a responsibility to do...
yes!
We have a responsibility as marketers
to give people things they want.
But as wine merchants
we have a responsibility to teach as well.
So that they can train their palates
to appreciate fine wine because
I promise you once you get to appreciate fine wine,
you can't go back to monstrosities like this.
One way trip to hell!
Smile a little bit, Peter.
I get depressed.
I get depressed tasting wine.
I mean I can see what you've done.
You've bought a wine that you knew
it would be a caricature of wine.
But that fact that it even exists for me
is a scary, scary thing.
It's like hanging on the edge of purgatory
looking into the abyss.
When I entered the wine shop, in front me
there were shelves and
the shelves were full of these bottles.
I'm back to the first wine
and I still have the thick oak flavor in my mouth.
Yes.
No, when they've done that, what they've done with that wine with the oak,
you basically need to wash your mouth out with hydrochloric acid.
You need to take a few layers
off your tongue and off your palate to get rid of the oak flavor.
It sounds awful.
It's probably less awful than the wine.
Teach yourself, learn to appreciate really good wine.
If there is oak, let oak be a part of it.
But not the reason for it.
You may like a little bit of oakiness to your wine.
Not what this wine is,
which is a little bit of wininess to your oak.
Just in case actually I bought two bottles of wine.
The other wine is more...
Oaky than that!
Yes.
OK, good.
I think what you should do,
tomorrow, you wake up,
and run back there, and you get your money back.
OK, I see.
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