Everybody Jump!
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...in Saudi Arabia...
So you're saying, we are protecting the one country that is not only spreading the fundamental,
radical version of Islam, but also financing terrorism to a great degree... and we are
protecting, ignoring and pretty much letting them run roughshod over the area because of...
Because they are useful.
And why are they useful?
They are useful in a very old school sort of Imperialist way...
So you still don't think it's to access their resources...
Oh, of course, of course, but actually this gets back... so you had mentioned that like
Saudi Arabia had the... had the resources, had the...
The Resource! In the region that matters...
There's... but...
Can I ask you a question, can I ask both of you a question?
If there was no deposits of oil, under any country in the Middle East, do you even think
it would even rank and register on the global scale on which it does, for the number of
wars, number of conflicts, and the amount of time that we invest in this region of the
world?
Absolutely not. I think we'd just let them simply be in the desert doing whatever they
want, practicing whatever they want...
I think, I think a good comparison is any sort of Northern Africa, or these other regions
where you have
Resource rich regions...
Where you have a vast rural population, not as educated, large unemployment, conflicts
that are happening over territory
And then a diamond mine pops up...
...between tribes, just a resource poor nation that nobody wants to deal with. Is that the
analogue?
There's the concept of the "oil curse" and it's uh... if you look at some of the healthiest
countries in the Middle East, it's uh.. I would still include Turkey in that number,
and I think Jordan is... with very little in the way of resources... I mean they've
got the... they've got Petra, they've got the Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade place.
I still want to go there. But, so these countries that do not have significant oil resources
are in better shape than the rest of the Middle East.
I think that actually Oil, derailed Middle East development in very serious ways.
Yeah, because when they went from just another kid on the block to the most baddest kid on
the block, then you're saying, that's when they started to spread the radical ideology.
Exactly! And it's a very... it's a controversial thing to say, but I do think it's fair to
say that it is a kind of... OK I won't use the term Medieval... It's a pre-Modern context,
the way that Saudi Arabia governs itself. Because it is a, it's an absolute monarch,
with a relationship with a religious hierarchy, that is troubled and that's how they control
the country.
How much is it that the religious hierarchy controls that country?
Well that's, that goes back and forth. It depends on how powerful the king is. So the,
the first kind of modern Saudi Arabia, in the...I guess he... it was sort of a long
rise, they took Mecca and Medina I believe in the 1920's and he ended up having a very
long reign, didn't die until the early 1950's. He was powerful, he could pretty much dictate
to the religious hierarchy. But actually it was a very ISIS like group that helped him
come to power, and then they came into a dispute... I think over British subsidies, but don't
quote me on that, and he was able to crush them, because he was a more powerful Saudi
King.
It's a give and take...
So recently you're saying the religious component has been taking over the country.
The relationship between the Saudi family and the religious hierarchy actually goes
back almost 300 years.
So currently what is it at? Well currently it's the same give and take... in that the
Saudi kings, and there are elements of the Saudi royal family that are very interested
in modernization, further industrialization.. they're going to build innovation cities and
theme parks and yadda, yadda, yadda, but they can't go... they can never go too far. They
can never go to the point where they are ... where they are offending the religious hierarchy.
And the problem... especially since the late 1970s the kings have been in a weaker position,
because they have needed US power. They needed the Western... the evil Western infidel powers
to protect them from actors like Iran and Saudi Arabia. So they've already been in a
weaker position, and also the... the oil, since the beginning of the modern oil industry
in Saudi Arabia, in the 1930s there's been a ton of money coming in, but it's also involved
like Western engineers, and like subdivisions, like cloistered subdivisions of Westerners
living on holy Saudi land, so they have to spin a lot of money towards that religious
establishment.
So we've talked about how this came to be. And there's certainly, there's no doubt that
the relationship with Saudi Arabia was useful in the late 1970's against the Soviets in
Afghanistan, and everybody knows that story. And we've talked about how it's become dysfunctional
because of oil, and we've talked about where it's at and with the Saudis involvement in
9/11. So let's move forward now. Past today and let's say this. Let's say President Trump
did follow through with his promise to normalize relationships in the Middle East and go after
ISIS like we should...
So Let's say we de-emphasize the relationship with Saudi Arabia, and by virtue of that we
stop our support of what's going on in Yemen, and we pull out of Syria to an extent that,
I don't even know what to do there, but either way we get the hell out, then what happens?
What does that world look like, is that the right move? Like, is that what we should be
doing right now?
I would argue, I would argue it is, because especially from... would it be, short term
great for the region? Possibly not. Would it be long term great for the region? Absolutely.
Because less western involvement would be...
Who should control?
The actual countries there, the actual... throughout he history of the Middle East,
post-independence, like since the 1950s and 1960s, there have been very serious ideologies
and approaches towards development and what not, and they've all sort of gotten derailed
by the cold war and also by Saudi Arabia. Which I
So if it's not them, it's someone. It's never going to be just a complete even playing field
in this region of the world.
Of course not.
Who is going to take the lead. From what you're saying, and if I'm to believe everything that
you've put down in video and in writing, that Saudi Arabia is our puppet essentially, and
we're not going to spank them, we're not going to take away their money, we're not gonna...
We should.
Sure we should, we're not, we haven't, we're not doing that, and as a result you're saying
that that has helped spread fundamental terrorism through their extreme religious beliefs...
Who should run the show? Who should be getting the support?
Someone in that region has to take a
For, for...
I think it should be the same people who organized Coachella, because they did a hell of a job.
That's a good point. That's a good point.
Out in the desert, they know how to throw a party...
Open up a a dew lab right in the middle of it.
Yeah, dude! That'd be sick!
That is a good point.
Lady Gaga would break all their fucking feminist issues wide open.
There you are.
Fuck yeah dude.
Get a little nipple slip by Janet, those fucking guys would be going crazy.
I mean, who knows, could be that simple...
But there are clearly cultural differences between what goes on in here, and what goes
on in Saudi Arabia, and that's... they're a sovereign country, and that's like... we
might disagree, and we might think that their social order is backwards and their women's
rights are near the bottom in the world. While many of those things are and are probably
true, those reasons aren't necessarily enough for us to keep involved and try to shape who
they are as a country.
Yeah, I agree.
That's my opinion, just like I think State's should have rights in the US, over their own
decisions on social policy, I think sovereign countries should too, and that seems like
a no-brainer to me.
Well, Ray asked a very interesting question about who would be the power in the MIddle
East, and I think it'll be powers for... 500 to 1000 years depending on who you are talking
about, certainly since the 1500s...
Iran Israel?
Well... Not Israel! But...
Those two can't even fucking talk to each other! How are they going to run shit?
But it was Iran and Turkey. Iran and Turkey ran the Middle East for 500 ... I mean, Iran
has been present in some form some way for thousands of years. As Persia or what have
you, and the Turks have been very serious powers in the Middle East since about the
1510s... I do think that they would come back, and I think traditionally Egypt was sort of
the seat of Arab power, and Arab ideology and culture what have you. I would love for
more of that to come to the fore again. I mean Egypt currently is a big mess, but that...
I think Egypt, Iran, and Turkey would be the people who would control the region.
Ok What about Russia?
I was just going to say, because with each one of those countries there's a problem...
They have a large Muslim population, they've got borders on there, they, I haven't looked
into this, but my guess would be that they have issues with immigration now, and people
fleeing the Middle East. Particularly into Georgia, Chechnya etc. Do you think they have
enough of a vested interest to become a large regional player.
No. I absolutely don't. And that gets to something that I talk about a lot, I think that the
threat and power of Russia is dramatically over-sold. I think why they are going so hard
for Assad is because that was the sort of thing they liked. He was reliable... He let's
them use a naval base, He was one of what two or three countries that Russia can seriously
rely on in the world. But as far as taking a more serious control... It's....
They're not into nation building is what you're saying.
No. They don't have the.... You need a lot of resources to go in...
Because Vladimir needs his 20% off the top...
Their economics are tied to the same economics that... Saudi Arabia's economics are tied
to the same economics as the Russians.
As much as of you know... I think any problem in the world can be solved by more education,
but I think in this region of the world, I think the two problems at play here, most
likely won't get solved. One is religious rights, and religious freedom, and the other
is money, resources, oil money, basically the power associated with that resource.
You have two things here that started pretty much every war that's ever been waged in this
world. Religion, and power and money.
Yes, power and money, power and money.
Give me another example! Of course, they're the same things. We equate Basically they're
interchangeable at this point. So my point is, you're never going to solve, like I said,
with the like Iran and Israel... it's a religious... at base it's a religious problem. In the Middle
East this is a... Sunnis, Shi'ites, certain sects of Muslims, you're not going to tell
someone who believes something their entire life, for entire generations... no, no, no,
you can't believe that anymore, this is the same issue we have in this country with religious
issues, is that we think we can dictate to other people what they believe religiously,
in our laws. You can't do that, this is not going to be solved. By any one entity.
I would argue that religious conflict to a degree is a given, yes people are not going
to agree on certain things, but I really don't like the well it's been centuries of conflict
and millennia of yadda yadda and there's nothing we can do, because that's simply not true.
As far as the current
Sure there's something we could do...
The current like tempo of Sunni shia anger is something we have not seen in that region
for quite some time, well actually since the foundation of Saudi Arabia.
But it's these tensions always exist, like in Yugoslavia, you had these tensions, but
it's all about the politics, and the money and the power, of that moment. It's about
the politics of a given moment, that can make these things become bad.
But aren't politicians religious and represent religions when they run? I, mean...
What I'm saying is it's like, if the political control isn't invested in that sort of politics,
in religious politics, then things will be OK, like Yugoslavia fell apart in a horrible
ethno-religious thing in the 1990s, but for the 40 50 years before that, Serbs and Croats
were getting married. And I think in the MIddle East you have, it depends on the region, it
depends on the country, it's a tremendously diverse area, but the Sunni, Shia issue was
nothing compared to what it is today. If we hadn't gone into Iraq, Sunni and Shia would
not be killing each other... I think that is.. It's the politics.
I disagree dude. Saddam Hussein as a Sunni, and they were a minority in that country,
and they ruled with an Iron Fist over another section of that religion, Shi'ites. And the
Kurds, they were killing, it was bad, for a long time. So of course, as soon as he gets
de-throned, the Shi'ites are like, oh it's our time now, to lay down the fucking noise,
to lay down the rain. This isn't something that like... This is in every government and
institution, it is completely to the core of an individual what your religious beliefs
are... right now, in the middle east you have tons of conflicting religious dynamics. And
how is this...
But they wouldn't. I would contend, I don't want to minimize the conflicting religious
dynamics, that they simply would not be expressed on this level, with this violence, with this
anger... if it weren't for politics, if it weren't for Bush's invasion of Iraq, if it
weren't for Saudi Arabia, which puts a shit ton of money into enforcing and driving diversity
out of Islam. I think that is a very real problem. Islam...
What's their benefit? What's the benefit for the people of Saudi Arabia to spread this
fundamentalist extreme view of being a Muslim. I would say extremely limited, and they are
victims of this. The benefit is to the royal family. The Saudi royal family gets its legitimacy
by being the defenders of the faith, and by being the...
This extreme version of the faith.
Yes.
So who checks them on their version of the faith?
Well they check the religious establishment. So the religious establishment... This is
a deal that goes back, as I said, 250 to 300 years between... you've heard the term Wahabi?
It actually comes from a guy named Wahab. And the great, great, great grandfather of
the Saudi king.
I thought that was something you ate with Sushi?
No that's Wasabi...
Ooooh. Sorry.
That's a deal that they made, and in a tribal society, it was actually a very powerful deal
to make. And it was intermittently very effective. It was effective for about a 50 year period
in the 1700s to the 1800s, and then more developed countries like Egypt and Ottoman Turkey smacked
them around. And they spent 100 years in the wilderness. And then it was the British, and
the Americans that brought them back.
Once we discovered they had a super important resource.
I think, well, with the British, it predated that...
British Petroleum?
Ah, that's an important.... but actually it was actually Standard Oil of California that
tapped that first well in 1938.
Sons of bitches!
Y'know.
I'm fucking looking at you Standard Oil. Alright, so I think we've probably, I don't know if
the camera's about to run out, but anybody got any final...
Yeah, let me throw this out there. There's some news stories being thrown out about Saudi
Arabia maybe developing some alternative energy sources, and they're on board for the big
green win. Ray, any impact there, do you think it's a...
I do, I think you just mentioned 2014 as being a time period where you saw them lose some
of their power, I think that's not a coincidence, that as a country, not only the United States,
but Europe is ahead of us, by like 20 or 30 years, we're seeing a shift dramatically from
fossil fuels to renewable sources of fuel, trying to create a more stable, sustainable
society. There's no question that's going to help. If you take the influence of their
money and their power away from them? People are going to start caring much less about
their religious wars, and what they feel and what the relationships are with warring countries
around them. At the end of the day I fear that what's going to happen is we're just
going to leave. All the foreign interests are going to be like, oh no more oil? Good
luck. And they're going to take off, and they're going to be back in the wilderness, and fending
for themselves.
I would be OK with that.
See, I like to see all humanity move forward. I don't want to see anybody be put into that
situation. And if it's so important to us now to spend billions and billions of dollars
waging war and installing dictators and doing this, and wanting to protect their the women
in those countries, and giving them the ability to go to school to be educated and have rights,
and all of a sudden, when there's no more money, and no more ATM, we don't care anymore?
Well I think that, look at Latin America...
I think it's too late, we're vested, we have to continue to support and try to figure out...
The great thing about Latin America is... if you, if you picture Latin America in the
1980s, it was the Middle East but worse. Because you had, you had the exact same dynamic. In
that case it was great powers, it was the Soviet Union, the United States, competing
different you know competing dictators, we're going to support this guy, you're going to
support that guy yadda yadda, and now that's over. With the end of the war in Columbia,
I believe that the entire Western hemisphere is completely free of war, which is extraordinary
to a child of the 1980s
Well there's still a war on Drugs...
Oh yes...
The most fucking, the most pointless, bullshit war ever.
Sounds like a good talk for another video.
How about South America as a talk for another video, because I can't co-sign that statement,
but I'll let...
So, Rob, thanks for having us out, Ray...
Thank you guys...
Coachella 2018, see you there baby,
Be there or be square.
T-lab.
Indeed. Thank you for watching, please subscribe. I hope you'll watch the rest of this series.
This discussion, I think did a great job of illuminating some of these issues. And please,
give my essay "Everybody's Lying About Islam" a look. It's available now on the Amazon Kindle,
and I think it does a pretty good job of laying out these issues in a way that you won't get
anywhere else.
It does do that.
Thank you travis.
All right.
More Freedom Foundation. The Straight Dope.
Yes...
Michigan, Ray...
Go Blue!
There we go... I was waiting for that. Go Blue, Go Blue...
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