congratulations you are in the right place at the right time this is the some
encourage change everything podcast with Matthew leading an inspiring interview
with a guest who has achieved big goals in life and work and who will divulge
their secrets to success today now the man behind the microphone matt levy
hello some encourage change everything community I'm Matthew Lee be the host of
the some encourage change everything podcast if you like what you hear please
help spread the word in your networks and with a five star review or the
equivalent I'm so pleased to have Paul Kersey joining us for this episode
Paul works at the intersection of strategy and human development as well
as organizational change Paul looks at business performance through the lens of
communication leadership and strategic alignment founded in 2008 the Kersey
group is a coaching and consulting firm specializing in executive coaching team
effectiveness meeting facilitation and change management Paul thanks for
joining me today thanks for having me Matt it's great to be with you
excellent excellent so Paul we're going to have some fun today talking about
summoning courage to achieve big goals in work and life and in prepping for the
podcast I know that that you created some big
change in your career several years ago when you transition from the publishing
business to starting your own business I'm sure that it isn't everyone's dream
but a lot of our listeners do think about being their own boss can we jump
right into that yeah sure Matt I'm happy to kind of give
you the backstory a little bit I guess there are a couple of events that led up
to to that that may or may not make sense from a sequential standpoint but
there is a thread so I started my career in the media business right after
graduating art school so it was kind of a there's kind of a bit of a shift there
you know having a degree in painting and working as a fine artist for 10 years
I showed my work in Philadelphia in New York and even in Europe and at the same
time was working at a an alternative newspaper and now you know that was
quite a shift but I was I found myself doing sales and marketing and did that
for a period of time and eventually kind of took over the department eventually
became publisher of that newspaper and I worked there for about 15 years as I was
approaching the end of that tenure I was beginning to see the
handwriting on the wall for traditional mainstream media of which we were apart
and you know went down several roads to see whether I could contribute to you
know to changing the dynamics for preferred newspapers and when I realized
I wasn't gonna be the guy that said that I hired my own coach and I began working
with a coach to help me transition and and and craft a new chapter from my
professional life and it was during that experience that I came to the
realization that what I really loved doing was exactly what my coach was
doing and that was helping individuals get from point A to point B I was
actually also facilitating a group of leaders throughout the the the city in
what I've referred to as a mind share group so we would convene on a monthly
or every six weeks or so and the concept of mind share was to was a group of
people who volunteered their time talent and resources and service to one
another's personal and professional goals
so we were really a support group of people from every every area of business
and you know I can be in that group through that experience word got out
that I was can a convener and facilitator and Drexel University
reached out was looking for a facilitator to help them merge two of
their schools or help them facilitate a process that would bring together the
leadership's of leadership of two schools and help them merge into one and
I was able to you know to engage with with them on that project and on on the
basis of that experience I turned in my resignation as as has published your
hand and gradually transitioned full time and I think I think the common
thread through the through the whole experience was this was this interesting
communication communicate you know visual communication as a fine artist
communicating with advertisers and and and readers
as a publisher and helping people today and with their communication efforts
which are often kind of it there at the root of some of the developmental issues
we see in organizations so you mentioned you mentioned hiring a coach now you
know I don't know if if a lot of people go in that direction obviously I do it I
think it's great I've had a coach love the idea I guess the question is then
you know how did you come to the realization that that would be a good
move for you you know Matt I'd like to take all the credit for being that that
proactive and that prescient at the time but the reality is that you
know universe has a way the universe has a way of providing what we need and at
that time it was through a conversation with someone at a party who happened to
be an executive coach that it became clear that the two of us could and
should work together so it in a sense it found me mm-hmm
I was you know he was explaining what coaching was all about and I was
standing there realizing that this is exactly what I need
so it was I was very fortunate your you were open to it you know a lot of people
feel like they can read it in a book now what I like to say about that Paul is
that if it was as simple as reading in a book we'd all be billionaires and we
would all look like Brad Pitt or Angelina Jolie right it's not that easy
no there are some things you can't you can't learn in a book yeah so so the pod
can't one of the podcast main themes is around courage and being able to look
into a situation faced face fear face limiting beliefs self-doubt you must
have had do that to go in the direction of the
Kersey group which you know has your name on it
right so so talk to us a little bit more about you know your thoughts about about
doing this and and did you did you suffer from the common limiting beliefs
and self-doubt that you could really make this happen
yeah yeah it's a great question and and the answer is no there's no doubt and
you know when I when I when I decided to take a leap which took some time but
when I decided to take the leap I I did so with kind of a mixture of fear and
bravado so I felt like I did have some innate ability and skill and and and I
was very open to learning so I was very engaged in in the coaching program and
in continuing to learn about you know facilitation and organizational
development and all those things and I felt confident that I could I could
actually get good at this what I didn't know was whether anyone would care if I
was good and I didn't know what the competitive landscape would be and I
didn't know if anyone would hire me you know my approach really was to was to
reach out to my network of people and you know share my story share my
intentions I didn't have a lot of case studies to work with at the time so I
had to you know rely on people who maybe knew and trusted me enough to to you
know to work with and I came across a couple of early opportunities with some
fortune 500 companies through some people who had you know the confidence
in me to put my name forward and those experiences this first of all not only
taught me a great deal but they really threw me into the deep end and I found
that I really relished being in the deep end because it really accelerated my
learning so I was very committed to over performing during these engagements
so I had some early opportunities with with large companies a large utility
company who had just gone through a merger they merged with their largest
competitor and you know they hire the Boston Consulting Group to come in and
do the big change management but they hired me to integrate the two IT
departments and this was added at its root it was very much a an internal
communications engagement and I was fortunate enough through through some
new colleagues of mine to been able to learn about and use a internal
communications maturity model that was designed for IT departments and we were
through that process we were able to identify about 24 different areas where
they can improve their communications before they can become a fully
integrated and blended IT department and that was a wonderful experience I
learned a ton I had wonderful relationships with that company there
among my biggest champions today and that you know that kind of paved the way
to other other interesting engagements so that gave me a bit of a boost early
on excellent so you you do a lot of
coaching of CEOs do you see this concept of facing fears and limiting beliefs and
self-doubt do you find that with with the the clients that you work with that
they face that - yeah I absolutely do you know I mean I think you know in a
very real way we all experience the same types of fears and insecurities
regardless of what level of achievement we've what level we've accomplished and
you know it's it's the saying that it's it's lonely at the top is really true
and there are not a lot of places where people the c-suite you can go and
and really challenge themselves to perform at a higher level to address
some of their their flat sides to to overcome some of the obstacles that are
interfering with their you know their ability to delete so you know I mean
there there's there's sufficient fear and self-doubt combined with with in
some instances you know healthy egos and and and and fierce determination the
other so these people have gotten to the level that they're at in large part
because of their fierce determination to succeed excellent so Paul the listeners
are used to hearing me talk about what I call the dream action plan and this is
this five steps that help individuals achieve big goals and the the deed is
around devotion and we talked about how if you can connect what what you're
doing in your life and in your work to something bigger than yourself
it really helps with this concept of our search for meaning and look at different
phases in our careers this is more important than at other phases but for
you Paul have you have you been thinking do you have you thought about how what
you're doing in the Kersey group connects to something bigger than
yourself yeah that's a such a great question and you know I mentioned the
earlier that I felt like I had an inkling that I might actually have some
innate skills and capabilities in this area but it really wasn't you know and
not how a moment for me was was a quote that I heard and it was shared with me
by my own coach from Howard Thurman and maybe you come across this quote but the
quote is don't ask what the world needs ask what makes you come alive and go do
it because what the world needs is people who come alive and that
really resonated with me because it really it really underscores the fact
that our greatest sources of power our greatest impact comes when we discover
what lights us up and and then we decide to do that so I I don't know that quite
gets at your question of devotion but you know when I when I came to realize
that this really wasn't about me it was about the impact that this work can have
on on you know things that at a global level there's a ripple effect that comes
with being able to to support somebody's development an individual's development
of team's development and organizations development that ripple effect it really
extends quite far and and you you you talked a little bit already alluded to
your family I think that that can be a certainly a huge source of inspiration
that when you're deciding whether to make a left at your five o'clock
appointment and go home or turn right and maybe make one more call visit one
more client you know you you you may be thinking of the kids and how you're
trying to set them up for long-term success that that that could be a huge
motivator for a lot of people absolutely it absolutely is tremendous source of
joy and tremendous source of motivation right in more ways than one huh
yeah so so we talk about the the are is resolved this unwavering determination
particularly as it relates to goal-setting
yes because the feeling is a lot of people have these great ideas maybe in
the shower or when they're driving and a lot of times people just don't put
these ideas into motion what's your thoughts about goal-setting and and and
sticking to a plan to execute and make things happen in your life and in your
career mm-hmm yeah I you know I talk about goals at nauseam with clients
right and my own goals are are less kata fide frankly I think I alluded to
earlier on my strategy was to go out and talk to as many people as possible and
to tell them my story and and about my intentions and
you know my my goals really are around ensuring that I have much like an
investor right has a diversified portfolio of various sized clients and
companies that I can work with and making sure that I have some blue chip
large companies that I can rely on for steady work this if I have to think in
terms of business goals those are things that I keep top of mine currently my
focus really is serving the middle market companies and so and by that I
mean companies that are you know between 20 million and 1 billion in revenues
because I feel like I can offer them more and as a group we can offer them a
wider range of services and support that they may not have the resources for
internally so that's I don't know whether that speaks to strategy or board
to the goals but that those are the things that I keep top of mind as I
pursue work I in a speech I give I talked about how Rockefeller knocked on
doors all day every day for an entire summer when he was 16 years old looking
for his first job and I use that as an example of this resolve this unwavering
commitment to getting something done and like not being denied can you think of
an example in in in your career or life broadly yeah where where you just were
so committed you were just not going to take no for an answer
yeah I mean you know it's one of the things that I think is is the best piece
of advice that I've gotten and that's to never ever give up and that you know
success often lies on the other side of failure or you know the the instinct to
give up my resolve is is really and and in part it's a it's you can define this
as a business development strategy of sorts but I am very committed to finding
ways to help people everyday so whether its clients prospects friends you know
connecting people doing those little things that that Adam grant frankly
talks about and give-and-take as are really central to my to my approach so
so the the and we could go down the the networking give-and-take path like crazy
because I'm a huge fan of that but I want to press on to some other topics we
talk about E which stands for energy and the concept there of course is that
people have a finite amount of energy energy as human beings and we have to
use it to the best of our ability I talked about the people places and
things that give us energy and the people places and things that that SAP
us or zap us of energy what are some of the people places and things that that
you concentrate on to try to give you energy to be at your best Paul yeah yeah
I think well I think I may have alluded to to my family as a tremendous source
of energy no matter how bad your day is when you come home and and poor young
and that my children are quite young and they you know they run and hug you it's
it's it's it's everything melts away and and starting the day that way is is
equally as exciting so my family in general are a tremendous source of
energy for me and inspiration activities that I engage with I mean I
practiced yoga for many years sort of helps keep you flexible
physically emotionally and spiritually we used to travel extensively my wife
and I and you know that was before the kids came but we still managed to get
away you know a handful of times a year and that is that is very invigorating
for us and and and we have a place at the beach that we go to on weekends that
you know it's just been an enormous source of joy and contentment for us as
a family and really does reach recharge me you know the little thing is the you
know playing with the kids going fishing playing at the beach cooking outside is
all that stuff is as it's been a real blessing and of course friends and
family and neighbors that we still have lots of close relationships with with
with good friends and that's that's also a source of energy how do you make time
for that though because it's the kursi group you know you're you're you're the
CEO of the of this coaching and consulting firm and clients are needing
you you got a prospect there's bills to be
paid right I could go on and on now that I have a sense of it myself
how do you how do you make the time for you know the family time the the
exercise you're talking about getting away how do you put that in there's a
lot there's a lot you say no to Matt as you probably well know you know the the
life we lead today is very different than the one we we led prior to the
children and prior to running our own business you know you find a time you
blend things you you make use of your time as best you could
you know you just bake the time for the things that are important I think that's
what we all do we make compromises in order to get things that we want out of
life III heard it attributed to Covey but I
understand that it may have originated elsewhere but the classic you know
putting putting rocks into a jar and then pebbles sand and water and being
able to pack a lot in if you do it in the right order right so the rocks for
you you you've talked a little bit about you're getting the big things in and
then you're working the rest of your life around them because if you did it
the other way put this in the pebbles in and then you're left with these rocks
they're not gonna fit in exactly that's the perfect analogy perfect analogy yeah
it's interesting you talked a little bit about saying no that that's it that's
something that many of us need to practice more because the distractions
are are everywhere and when you say no did you get concerned that you're you
know you know lose a friend tick somebody off I what's your process for
for saying no how do you stay firm to that yeah yeah well he'd do it necessity
mostly because there are so many hours in the day and you know it's it's it's
easy to become distracted I'm you know as a as a former visual artist I'm prone
to distractions but I you know realized that there's so little time that you
want to you know you want to be judicious with the way you spend your
time yeah so can we talk a little bit about the a in the dream framework which
is attitude and certainly we know about the the the power of a positive attitude
there's the whole area of positive psychology that's that's coming forward
how does this concept play out in your day to day life work and with your
clients yeah yeah so it is so important right and I like to
describe it more as as a growth mindset you know borrowing from Carol's waxwork
and others who have who have talked about what you alluded to earlier self
limiting beliefs and you know that mindset that that growth mindset that
you know that tells us we're capable of learning anything that failure is not
necessarily a setback but an opportunity to to learn something new you know those
self nit limiting beliefs that keep us back are you know can be devastating and
paralyzing for people mm-hmm so what would be a tip then for somebody that
that may fall naturally more on on a pessimistic thinking scale and you know
they know that they may need to be more optimistic and think more optimistically
and their struggle with that will you have a tip for them to try to overcome
you know it's it's always a question but from from my perspective as a coach of
challenging their their beliefs their statements challenging them you know I
mean what what evidence do they have to support this self limiting belief what
what if you were to look at it from this perspective what would you know what
would your best friend tell you about that situation about your ability in
that area what you know just kind of get them to change their perspective on you
know what their beliefs are yeah you know I use the example of of a paradigm
shift and the classic paradigm shift is the the older astronomers thought that
the that the Sun rotated around the earth
and it wasn't until Copernicus like fifteen hundred years later that he
proved that of course that the earth is revolving around the Sun and that was a
complete paradigm shift because everybody on the planet at the time
couldn't believe it and then they snapped in and said oh you know what
that's actually the way it is so this paradigm shift thought a
metaphor is about how we can also change the way we view things and all of a
sudden opens up all new possibilities it's so true you know all of our
behaviors stem from from our beliefs mm-hmm and as soon as we those beliefs
are challenged and changed our behaviors change along with them yeah you know
it's it's it's it reminds me also a Frankl who was the one that talked about
that that between stimulus and response there is a space and if as human beings
we can only draw our awareness to the space and decide what to do in that
space it can change everything because people think that they're that when
stuff happens to them that they don't have a choice and that they have to
react a certain way a quick example of this is something like death where in
Western cultures the knee-jerk reaction to death is as grief but in some Eastern
cultures when somebody dies they immediately celebrate the light that the
person has perfect example of stimulus stimulus death
you know response grief doesn't have to be that way yeah that's terrific I just
wrote that down because I have to look up Bank oh yeah that's Viktor Viktor
Frankl who was a concentration camp survivor during the Holocaust he was
also a neurologist and a psychiatrist and his famous work was man's search for
meaning and and this component of between stimulus and response is a space
is is something that I don't want to over portray it but for me it was a life
change or a game changer yeah yeah awesome so so mastery is is the last
letter in the dream framework and and as you know Paul mastery is around being a
lifelong learner and continually trying to improve you know one skills I know
from from knowing you that you practice this concept of lifelong learning but
give our listeners a few ideas about how you continue to sharpen your saw wow
that's a great question I try to do it in a variety of ways
they're obviously oh there's always a book I'm in I'm into so there's there's
there's learning from from that currently I mean yeah I represent work
recently her book called mindset the new psychology of success is one that I
would I would recommend I also was very impressed with Tracy Goss's book the
last word on power which I've read recently that further explores the
importance of context and people's belief systems as a catalyst for their
behaviors I I interact with colleagues who are in this in this industry
I am part of a global coaching collective and we we meet online monthly
and they in a kind of a Discovery call during which we evaluate cases and share
perspectives and tools and techniques for serving our clients I have a group
of my own which includes Meir Rosenbaum who was a terrific facilitator she's you
know she started out as a terrific facilitator and then decided to go even
deeper with her her knowledge so now she's in the midst
of this very intense course so she's taking her facilitation levels to a
whole new height Ben Bowman who is a young very dedicated very earnest coach
and strategic alignment specialist and and and rod Sullivan who is a leadership
development and an executive coach as well as an IT consultant and these are
people that I interact with regularly and we share ideas and and thoughts
about this this complex world of human development that were very engaged in
yeah sure so interesting to reflect that 10 years ago 2007 there was no iPad no
air B&B no Spotify Instagram Android or Pinterest
can you imagine could you have predicted in 2007 that this is what you would be
doing now and the second part of the question is what do you think you might
be doing in 2027 Wow that's a great question the first part of your question
all I could have predicted back in 2007 was that I would be helping to
facilitate change so at the individual and an organizational level I feel much
more grounded in the work I'm doing I could not have predicted that I would
have for example been a catalyst for transforming labor-management relations
at a at a I would not have predicted that I was doing any number of in any
number of the things that that I've had the privilege of of having done over the
past few years whether it's working with biotech teams
and or you know facilitating planning meetings for a global food company you
know I could never predict at any of that but you know I said it before the
universe is strange it kind of delivers what we focus on we tend to get in terms
of what I'll be doing in 2027 you know you use the word mastery earlier and I
really want to be become masterful and at this work I'll have had how I've had
lots of years under my belt by then so no excuses if I you know continue to
what I'd love to be doing is really working more with you know
transformational leaders who really want to you know really want to change the
world and I would love to be walking beside those folks supporting their
efforts I do occasionally have that opportunity and and I'd like to be doing
that exclusively by 2027 mm-hmm awesome well hey you just you just put it out
there to the University see what comes back
what's the best advice you've ever received you know I've got to go back to
that statement I made earlier when someone told me just never give up never
give up and never give in that if you you you have a mission keep it front and
center and find a way to keep it moving forward every day and you know what
they're gonna be days where you're not going to be you're not gonna be at your
best and they're gonna be days where you know you struggle and you lack focus and
you lack energy and you wanna give up and those are the times where you really
want to dig in believe in yourself and push forward because as I stated earlier
success often lies just on the other side of you know of failure and we can
weather those periods we build resilience and and and we get to another
level yeah and you know reflecting on your comments Paul that particularly in
in service businesses like ours it can be it can be easy to get distracted like
we talked about before I was reading recently that somebody suggested that
that we in service businesses should think of our work in the same way that
truck drivers think of their work and what was meant by that is truck drivers
don't say you know like a you know I don't feel like getting out of bed today
and driving a truck they have a route they get in their truck and they drive
they show up and they do their work that this is this is what what I've been
thinking about is you know I can't make any excuses I can't give up I have to
get in the truck every day and drive right
that's so true you know I never really was absent much but you know I could
probably count on one hand the number of days that I you know was absent for one
reason or another since leading and going out on my own I don't know if I've
ever missed a day of work you just get up and grab the keys and drive the truck
on a daily basis I that I don't know what it is but it's there's something
maybe it's just you know you're driven to
for what's possible on a daily basis I think it's the devotion yeah you're
you're working every day you know to support yours not just support yourself
but again I guess I'm getting back to when your name's on the door it's just a
whole nother level of dedication yeah so that's too scared to fail thing too as
we wind down is there anything else that that you would love to share with our
listeners you know Matt you know we touched on a lot of themes that are
really that really resonate with me and the one that that I guess I'd like to
emphasize is this is age-old debate as to whether or not people are capable of
changing and you hear that often right you hear there are a lot of truisms that
aren't necessarily true and and you know often you know you'll be assigned to
work with someone who is even beyond middle age and the question becomes well
this person's been this way their whole life do you know what can they really
change and I think you know I think science has put that question to bed I
think that I think the overwhelming evidence is that people can change but
it has to it has to start at the root core level and that's with changing
their beliefs their really deeply understanding their context what it is
that they believe to be true about themselves and about the world and
really probing on that and once you know people can kind of uproot some of those
you know those basic root beliefs and they are capable of changing I love that
Paul thank you for that yeah you know you're reminding me of the actual
neuroscience behind change brain brain chemistry that
through MRIs they show that even into old age we can continue to expand our
thoughts our brain you know it's not static and it doesn't it doesn't
dissipate so there there's there's definitely hope for all of us
plasticity yeah yeah yeah yeah thank you thank you neuroplasticity that was what
I was looking for beautiful beautiful so so Paul listen how can our listeners
reach out to you what's the best way for them to connect with you well you know
you're welcome to to hit me at Paul at the Kersey group comm and email and
curse you spelled see you our CI some people people get that wrong and or hit
me up on Twitter at at citizen Kersey mmm-hmm or just go to my website which
actually launched a brand new one did just today and that's the Kirsty group
calm great great I'm sure we're wherever people are listening to the podcast
we'll make sure that we have a link there for people to track you down
Oh terrific awesome awesome hey Paul thank you so much for those amazing
insights it was wonderful to have you to our listeners remember please subscribe
and share a positive review that's how we get the word out about the podcast
this is Matthew levy and until our next episode remember when you summon courage
everything changes
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