it seems like most of us would be able to spot these people, though, right? We're
all really good judges of character. We know when someone's using us. How do
these Hijackals manage to slip under the radar? Well there's a few ways. First
of all they're chameleons, so they will be whomever you want them, to be whomever
they have to be, in order to charm you, manipulate you, persuade you, seduce you,
so you can really think, 'I've met my soulmate. I've met the most perfect
person.' They're reading you perfectly. They're feeding it back to you, and
you're going, 'Oh, let me let my defenses down. I finally met this perfect person.'
And then they began to subtly change. Sometimes they change drastically, so
it's really important to understand that these people have the ability to draw
you in and reduce your defenses, make you honestly believe that you are a great
judge of character, and you have taken them in and read them as perfect for you..
And then things change, and then when they change, you don't want to say, 'Oh my,
I made a mistake. We go, 'Oh, let me help them. If only I'm more compassionate, more
loving, more patient, more kind, less demanding, I will be able to nourish and
nurture them, and they will then feel loved, and when they feel loved they'll
love me back, and everything will be great because we're people of goodwill,
but that's not the case with a Hijackal, it doesn't work that way.
Welcome to YourBrilliance.com. I'm your host Amy Waterman, and today we are
talking about how to deal with the toxic people in your life. Now, you know the
ones, they're the names that spring to mind the instant I said 'toxic people.' They're
work colleagues, they're family members, and sometimes they're even partners or
spouses. They're people who are bad for you,
they make you doubt yourself, they take over your life, and you can't seem to
just get rid of them, you know, you can't cut those ties.
Well Dr. Rhoberta Schaler is here to help, she's a relationship consultant,
mediator, speaker, and author who provides urgent and ongoing care to relationships
in chronic crisis. She helps her clients to recognize and to stop tolerating abuse
from relentlessly difficult people, whom she calls Hijackals. Her work has
appeared in Cosmopolitan, Good Housekeeping, the Good Men Project,
eHarmony and Your Yango, and today she's here to talk to us about how we can deal
with the Hijackals in our lives. Welcome Dr. Schaler. Thank you so much it's a
pleasure to be here with you Amy. So let's start out by defining toxic people
what is a toxic relationship a toxic relationship is a relationship where you
always feel less than you are always feeling caught off your off guard your
feeling that somebody has power over you you feel cut off at the knees you can't
do anything right you're always being blamed and everything is your fault
that sounds very typical I can immediately think of a couple
relationships right now do you think this is something that a lot of people
struggle with or is this pretty rare Oh unfortunately it's getting less and less
rare everybody knows one of these people once we begin to understand what a hi-
jackal is because when you realize that you go oh that's what was happening
that's why I felt so terrible that's why I would walk away dazed and confused
from these relationships and that I didn't look forward to being around
those people so you know these people Hijackals
where does that come from Hijackal is because too many people were going to
the Google goddess and they were saying here's what's happening to me now
remember the Google goddess is an index not a professional so the the Google
goddess spit back psychological labels and diagnosis that's not healthy that's
not good it might give you an idea that oh I am in trouble here there is
something bad going on but don't be diagnosing other people and so I wanted
a non clinical term that would allow everybody to talk about the common
traits patterns and cycles of these relentlessly difficult people so I
created the term Hijackal and the definition for that is Hijackals are
people who hijack relationships for their own purposes and then relentlessly
scavenge them for power status and control it seems like most of us would
be able to spot these people though right we're all really good judges of
character we know when someone's using us how do these Hijackals manage to
slip under the radar well there's a few ways first of all they're chameleons so
they will be whomever you want them to be whomever they have to be in order to
charm you manipulate you persuade your seduce you so you can really think
you've I've met my soulmate I've met the most perfect person they're reading you
perfectly they're feeding it back to you and you're going oh let me let my
defences down I finally met this perfect person and then they began to subtly
change sometimes they change drastically I have one client and I have clients all
over the world because I work by video conferencing I have one client who was
loved bombed - that's what we call it - up until her wedding night and on her
wedding night he changed like that and just was horrible to her physically
assaulted her I walked out and that was what their wedding night looked like me
so it's really important to understand that these people have the ability to
draw you in and reduce your defenses make you honestly
believe that you are a great judge of character and you have taken them in and
read them as perfect for you and then things change and then when they change
you don't want to say oh my I made a mistake we go oh let me help them if
only I'm more compassionate more loving more patient more kind less demanding I
will be able to nourish and nurture them and they will then feel loved and when
they feel loved they'll love me back and everything will be great because we're
people of goodwill but that's not the case with a Hijackal. it doesn't work
that way what do they want from us like I completely see in so many ways the
pattern that you're talking about where people treat you as amazing and you
think yes I'm amazing and this feels so good and then you get closer to them and
then they start to take you down you think well they're just seeing the real
me I guess they're seen actually my flaws I do need to step up why do they
even do this to us like isn't there better uses of their
time oh no you see the thing about Hijackals is sadly enough - don't get
trapped in the 'sadly' - sadly enough they've organically been grown
to be this way they are so fragile even though
appearing arrogant and strong and on top of everything emotionally so fragile
that they must have control over you they must dominate you
they must even go so far as to define your reality. A Hijackal will tell you
what you think, feel, need, and want. And at that moment you've got to have every red
flag perfectly in sight so what do you mean you're telling me no I remember a
fellow saying to me when I was dating and he said well you think you've you
think you think this and I said excuse me did we have a conversation about that
did you ask me what I think and he said well no I said don't ever presume to
know what I think if you haven't asked me
now that's my Hijackal radar. I was raised by a den of Hijackals, that's why
I'm so effective into it in this work, and so therefore I attracted Hi-
jackals in my life. I had to do the work to stop doing that. The good news is you can
do the work but you must work with somebody who really understands this
dynamic so I want to know what makes us certain people so appealing to Hi-
jackals and not others if you are someone who seems to attract a lot of
people who want to tell you what to do want to tell you what to think who want
to make you feel your flaws what is in you that's attracting them? Well they can
see your insecurities they could see how much you long to be loved they can see
how much you long to be approved of imagine how attractive that is to a
Hijackal because they can dangle that. 'I will validate and approve you if...' And
then they keep moving the carrot right so you keep leaning in thinking I'll do
more I'll do more and then they'll tell me I'm wonderful and I'm loved. Their
whole game is to tell you you're not wonderful you're not loved I hold that
control in my hand so they have complete power over you it's most often a subtle
process but sometimes it's not as like being hit by a Mack truck but what's
within us is the desire to please the desire to be liked the desire to be
loved the desire to be cherished and validated and so we keep hoping that
that person is the one that will give it to us and we stop realizing why but
we've got our rose-colored glasses on looking for what we want to see that
it's really hard to see red flags when you're wearing rose-colored glasses and
unlike them we always want to see the best in people exactly works against us
so I want to know what the difference between this and like a narcissist or
somebody who verbally and emotionally abuses is is it all a package? It's all a
package the reason I created [the term] Hijackals is so people are not making
psychological diagnosis when they're not psychologically trained to make
diagnoses hi jackals if we look at the psychological situation Amy
in the dsm-5 what would happen if if somebody came to someone to be diagnosed
there are a bunch of traits and all of them fall into personality disorders so
whether it's a narcissistic histrionic a borderline sociopath a psychopath you
know any of those definitions that we've had in the past
oh that the person who's diagnosing does is say okay on the scale like this
person has this particular for in this particular amount
therefore the diagnosis is or they have three of these and two of those okay is
this diagnosis that's how it works so we needed the non clinical term to
say all Hijackals the regardless of diagnosis. All Hijackals drink from the
same pool of traits they're going to have all of those traits most of those
traits so it doesn't matter but yes Hijackals include all those people. Do they
ever change is there some way you can wake up a Hijackal and get that healthy
loving relationship you wanted? That's what you're dreaming of that's what
you're longing for that's what you're leading into that's what you want there
in the case of borderlines, they are the only ones who have some empathy and so
borderlines will have times when they are truly remorseful that they've hurt
you and they truly want to change, and they can change, but it takes a long time
with the dialectic behavior therapy for them to change but the rest of them know
because they're perfect that remember what I said about having such a fragile
ego and sense of self, they have to believe they're perfect they don't need
help there is nothing wrong with them so therefore why would they change? Oh that
is just so perfect, again, people are springing to mind, but I want to know
then once you've made like how do you make that realization how do your
clients finally realize that this is what's happening to them because I know
as a woman and I'm sure lots of people are like this you want to see the best
in people you're very willing to believe it's your
fault because you know we all know we could be better we all know well
non-Hijackals all know we're not perfect how when does the light go on
what's the trigger that helps your clients realize that this is an
unsalveagable toxic relationship? Well, two things happen, one is that they get
hurt they get physically hurt and usually it's cumulative you know they'll
be shoved a little they'll be pushed a little they'll have the Hijackal standing
in front of a door and not letting them out or grabbing their arms or whatever
but hide your clothes who tend to physical violence tend to go for your
throat they will choke you they will do things
and at that moment it's so overt that you cannot ignore it I've had people
with Hijackals in my practice I have one now who was actually damaged her
thyroid was damaged by being strangled but it took strangulation before she
finally went and said no more so physical and sexual violence is the one
way that people mostly wake up I wish they'd wake up earlier with the verbal
and emotional violence but they don't and the other way they wake up is when
they see the person, the Hijackal, treating their children poorly and they
realize that I don't want my child to become like this I don't want that my
child to see this as a model of how a man or a woman behaves or how a man and
woman in relationship behave and so they will wake up for their children where
they will put up with with it for themselves so what does the victim of a
Hijackal do, like, if this is a spouse, if this is a mother or a father that's
doing it, these people are in our lives, can we survive is stay in those
relationships and survive or or is there another option? Why would you? Why would
you want to survive in that relationship you are constantly going to be in a
codependency mode whether you want to or not you know healthy people are
independent absolutely independent and then they come together they recognize
wonderful things and they choose to become interdependent unhealthy people
or even some healthy people who go we bent over in sucked into it a
codependent and they get into a relationship of codependency either both
are codependent or one is codependent and that can get worse even if you
started out as an independent. Know this about Hijackals. There are two kinds.
One of them, one kind, really likes to seek out the weak the one that is the
obvious target, and make them weaker. The other Hijackal
likes to choose a really strong person as a challenge and see if they can bend
them into codependency so it's really important to understand the distinction
and recognize as early as possible it's time to whip off those rose-colored
glasses. You can't fix it. You can't change it. You have to do your own work
within yourself learn to say no learn to have non-negotiable boundaries and stand
up and say if this continues I'm leaving and whether that's your mother or your
father or your your partner or your ex or your boss or your friend you need to
be able to say no this is not gonna happen in my life and you know you said
earlier in the introduction Amy that you know you can't cut ties with them oh
yeah you can and you need to you absolutely need to be willing to say, 'I
matter. I matter, my children matter, and this is unhealthy, and I refuse to live
with it and in it any longer. One of the unfortunate things about Hijackals, at
least the ones I've known is that they threaten you
if you dare to leave if you dare to think of leaving this is what I'm gonna
do to you so leaving may not be as easy as it sounds do you have any tips on how
to leave a Hijackal? Yes, two tips. First of all if there's no physical or
sexual violence do your own work right within there go get some help some very
specialized help clarify become empowered get strategies and skills try
them out while you're with the hi jackal practice them see if it makes any
difference, because there are degrees of Hijackals, so it can make a
difference. Making it more tolerable won't fix it but can make it more
tolerable hone your skills first and while you're
honing your skills, make a plan. Hijackals have a very nasty habit of wanting
control of the finances in a relationship so one of the things you're
going to have to do is to have a good look to see are you financially taking
care of yourself while you're in a relationship or has the Hijackal taken
control of all the money? Because you need to make a plan to make sure things
are in your name make sure you have money make sure you're setting things
aside make sure of the include in the entire package that you have financially
and you may have to stick around to reformat that in order to make a healthy
exit. So that is one way. The other way is that there is sexual or physical
violence and you just have to go that's all there is to it the only safe way is
to go and you must go no contact and you must get a restraining order and many
people that oh I don't want to do that to him or her it'll be on their record
it'll affect their job history media no that's codependency they don't care
about you stop caring about them and care about yourself get back on the bus
of Independence no nobody's going to treat me this way
I know it's hard it really is hard because you've gotten into a pattern and
you think more about the other person than you think about yourself but you
have to pull that back and start thinking about what do you need don't
start thinking about what it'll do to the other person that's their problem
now you have a wealth of resources about how to do this you've written 16 books
you've got two podcasts and you offer personalized coaching talk to us about
the help you can give people watching this right now. Sure, thanks. Yes, first and
foremost, go to my website ForRelationshipHelp.com -
ForRelationshipHelp.com. You'll find lots of things there in particular go to
books and programs and find my program seeing the cycles is a home-study
program so you can thoroughly identify whether or not you
have a high Jekyll in your life how that happened what happened to you in your
early life do the reflective exercises get really clear then you can go to my
YouTube channel, "For Relationship Help." Lots of stuff there. My podcasts are
"Emotional Savvy: The Relationship Help Show" and "Save Your Sanity: Help for
Handling Hiackals. They're both available you'll see them when you go to
ForRelationshipHelp.com - click on podcasts and video, I also have an
Emotional Savvy channel on Binge TV Network. You can watch the show there on
a regular basis, so there are lots of things you can do, and when you're ready
come and work with me privately I'd be really happy to help you, because I have
walked it I have lived it I have outlived it and I have the nasty video I
know every trick in the book for a Hijackal and it helps you to be with
someone who has lived it, experienced it and overcome it, and can help you do the
same fantastic thank you so much Dr. Shaler for coming onto the show and
talking to us about this I wondered if you had any last message you would like
to leave our viewers with? I do. You deserve to take up space and draw a
breath, you deserve to be able to say what you think, feel, need, and want
without anybody arguing with you. Always remember that because you deserve to be
assertive. You're not talking about anybody else. You're not putting anybody
down. You're not making judgments of someone else when you say what you think,
feel, need, and want without ever saying the word you. And that's a tip Amy from
my book "Kaizen for Couples." it's a technique that I call the personal
weather report it is the best thing ever if you want to hone your skills on how
to get along with other humans. Fantastic, thank you and thank you out there for
watching we hope to see you again soon until then let your brilliant shine
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