Kobi - Safety work and working safely, just talk through those two definitions for us.
Andrew - Sure, so safety or work is what goes on for the people doing the work, it's frontline,
operational safety if you like, and then, that's the safety of work, and then safety
work is all the other stuff that you might read on a job description, that you migh look
at in a management system, that you would see in an audit or that a regulator would
look for, so that's all of the audits and assessments and inspections, and training
and all that other stuff that we do and so, that's kind of the distinction, now those
things all serve a purpose, they all exist, they've all been created for some reason,
it's just a question of us being clear whether those things actually do relate to or contribute
to the safety of work or not, and in some instances, when we create safety work we actually
increase risk, we actually reduce the safety of frontline work, so an example of that is
the amount of inductions for example that peopl ehave got to go through will often compress
the amount of time they've actually got to do a job, that creates risk, and construction
sites are a good example of that, where you've got principle contractors and sometimes clients
and multiple stakeholders, multiple inductions, online inductions and then onsite inductions
and all that sort of stuff.
So that's a simple kind of example, I'm not saying that happens all the time, but sometimes
that's the trade-off and that's the unintended trade-off, and so I think us being conscious
about what is this in front of us, is it safety work or is it the safety of work and then
what are we doing to contribute to those, I think it's an important question to ask.
Kobi - So in terms of asking those questions, if we go one step forward to what we are pushing
here at Best Practice, and if we talk about culture, and this is the culture of safety
leaders and the culture of leaders in general, and then the culture of the people out in
the field, what are your thoughts around, if you know, and there's an argument that
if we had great culture, if we had great behaviors, we wouldn't need this stuff in the first place,
where's that at in industry at the moment?
Andrew - Yeah so I think, one of the interesting things that this research has tapped into
is this idea that culture is kind of a nebulous concept in lots of ways, so lots of people
talk about it but not a lot of people really understand it, and I'm in that category of
I don't know that I understand it enough in order to actually make a true difference in
it in a way I think that you can actually connect your effort and the outcome.
So a lot of the organizational research has actually moved on from culture and they're
looking at this concept of institutional logics.
Now I'm not going to pretend to know the ins and outs of that, but the basic idea is that
we apply logic for certain things and some of those logics are shared within our organization,
so within work groups, within teams, within whole organizations, so if we become, as professionals,
system professionals and safety professionals, understanders of logic, interpreters of logic,
if we understand the rationale behind why people are doing things and why we're doing
things, that enables us to change the way we work.
So an example of that might be, it's logical that we have a system that generates non-conformances
that generate actions that creates safety clutter, that's logical, so if we understand
that, and we kind of get a common understanding of that, then we can start to challenge the
logic, and we can go, okay right well does that connect with an outcome, and so I think
from my point of view, if we start to understand more about logics, which is the rationale
of the way people work, I find that far more practical, I think, is the right word, practical,
for us to kind of wrap our hands around it and understand it and then do something about
it, and I think that that goes to all different aspects of safety in particular, so if you
look at things like culture and leadership and human error and investigations and things
going wrong or whatever, I was doing some work with a client recently where they were
looking at motor vehicle risk and we went through that process of looking at incidents,
and they were really keen to understand what some of the causes and error, individual decision
making, self-awareness, you know all that sort of stuff came up and then I asked everyone
in the room whether they've ever gotten in their car and then arrived at their destination
and not really known what's happened inbetween, and everyone puts their hand up right, and
so I said: "so, it's interesting when we think about the logic that goes into making sense
about our investigations, because the very same thing that makes us successful in that
driving process where we got there okay, is the very thing, when we're on automatic pilot,
that can contribute to things going wrong, but our logic says: 'ah well, someone made
a decision in that someone was conscious about that', and so it just goes to show that we
don't quite understand what's going on up here."
So when we break it down in to trying to understand the logics that's behind things, which arn't
always conscious, Ithink that makes it far more tangible for us to take action on.
For more infomation >> 時間不會改變一切，能改變一切的人，只有你自己 - Duration: 2:53. 
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